little did we know / how much trouble / was soon to come

christmas holiday was great, as usual. not that I am overly religious but getting time off from work makes it a worthwhile holiday in my book.

last week ended pretty dramatically. luckily, I was surrounded by calm and experienced colleagues. to them it was business as usual, I guess. some of the things that happened were things I hoped to avoid for some time yet. nonetheless, I am grateful for being a part of the events that occurred. valuable lessons learned. also, filled with amazement and admiration when seeing my colleagues work. they rock.

took a few days off from lifting. working 8am until 10pm for a week straight makes me wanna do that. went to visit my friend, the eleiko powerlifting bar, yesterday. got a few good sets of squats (4×2 182.5 kg) and bench (3×6 120 kg) in. then, as always, tons of volume. joked around a bit with the real lifters (world, european and national titles), briefly considered to start using PEDs. quickly decided against it  due to illegal, dangerous, expensive, dangerous, I’m not a competitor, also dangerous and illegal.

bought a slingshot for shitz and gigglez. let’s see how I get an easy 150 kg bench in a year or two with this marvelous piece of equipment.

be good to each other.

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25 kommentarer till little did we know / how much trouble / was soon to come

  1. Fatman skriver:

    ”briefly considered to start using PEDs. quickly decided against it”

    I often wonder if the ”dangerous” part is a bit overplayed. The evidence seems circumstantial at best, and associated with egregious abuse. Which is fine, but abusing OTC drugs like aspirin or acetaminophen (paracetamol) would also be dangerous. Is there consensus in the medical profession on the health effects of low to moderate PED use?

    PEDs are a no-go for me because of potential balding, but I feel a lot of the resistance to them is based on superstition and false moralizing than on research.

    • lyftapajobbet skriver:

      I gladly admit to having less knowledge than optimal. as you mention, problems seem to be more common with abuse of substances, but on a population level it is my understanding that the majority of users also are abusers. there are most certainly a number of users who experience only minor or no obvious health issues due to using PEDs. if there is a consensus based on actual dosage, I am not aware of it. what is a sort of consensus, at least in Sweden, is that PEDs are to be considered detrimental to ones health. each year there are a substantial number of patients with liver issues that can be connected to their use of PEDs.

      this is just from personal experience and I am not aware of recent hard data. 🙂

      with regards to drugs in general, yes, I agree about the moralizing part. of one wants to keep people away from drugs (which I do), choose another strategy. 🙂

      • Fatman skriver:

        ”each year there are a substantial number of patients with liver issues that can be connected to their use of PEDs.”

        Thanks, that’s exactly the kind of info I’m looking for.

        In the US, any PED discussion tends to end in someone hysterically waving unresearched alarmist articles (e.g. ”teenage wrestler dies after taking creatine”) in your face. Or, on the other end of the spectrum, drug abusers trying to convince you that ”you’re weaker, smaller, or fatter than me because you suck, not because I’m juicing”.

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        there is a very interesting study currently underway in stockholm where healthy weightlifting women are given a small dose of testosterone.

        so you do NOT approve of the nancy reagan way to combat the drug epidemic? 😉

      • celicaxx skriver:

        Well, thinking of actual dosages. I think a big problem in the supposed safety or not of the drugs is just the dosages. The big problem I see in my research is basically nobody using them for performance enhancement is using them in medical amounts anymore. And to some extent this is due to the problems of black market supply of the drugs, and the dose becoming higher as the drug loses purity due to black market supply and nobody actually getting pharma grade stuff anymore, and everyone having wildly different purities or even getting the labeled drugs at all.

        But for sake of arguments, a medical TRT dose is about 80-100mg per week. 125-200 would be a reasonable performance enhancing dose, and still within the realm of a medically acceptable dose. But rather than that, you have people taking multiple grams of stuff per week.

        Even with the supposedly liver toxic and harsh oral steroids, nobody is using them in medical dosages. Dianabol was meant to be given at 5-10mg per day. On roid forums you regularly hear advice of ”kickstarting” cycles using 50mg, along with testosterone and other injectable drugs. Compounding this issue is lots of fake dianabol is around, that is methyltestosterone, which only works in relatively higher amounts, and is a toxic drug at said high amounts and was basically obsolete in even the 1950s. Worser still than even fake dianabol being methyltestosterone, or fake Anavar being stanozolol (more toxic) is prohormones. Much of the prohormones, Superdrol is a big example of this, were simply oral steroids determined to be too toxic to be put on the market even in the 50s, that didn’t get banned as they weren’t on the market. So you take that, and take it in higher doses than what they medically recommended (they probably only recommended 5-10mg per day too, and determined that was too toxic, then the marketers tell you to take 50-100mg per day to get swole as fuck…) you’re gonna have some issues.

        So obviously none of it is risk free entirely, and there’s always still an element of risk, but if you’re taking drugs beyond medical amounts, welp, you’re gonna have issues with any drug. But the problem I see in the steroid culture is that nobody actually wants to take the drugs in the medical amounts, as the performance enhancement and ”gains” are somewhat minimal then, and if you propose only doing this to roiders, they’ll just call you a pussy or whatever and tell you to take 3 grams of gear per week to get swole or whatever. But it’s my understanding, that in countries that dope in sports, they’re generally given more close to medical amounts of drugs compared to what you see in bodybuilding forums, etc. The main purpose of drugs then is just recovery and healing of injuries quicker, and the ability to not be fatigued and maintain a lot of training volume. But, doing it that way still does require actually working hard, and it only gives you basically the potential to reap results from said hard work, whereas otherwise without said drugs you’d just overtrain and go nowhere after a certain point depending on your physiology.

        But nowadays the culture is giant dosages and basically treating steroids literally like plastic surgery. I had a ”friend” (who was a jackass and I stopped talking to shortly after that who took 3 grams of gear while literally doing P90X in his house…) in UK who compared steroids to breast implants for girls. Which to me is just kind of odd thinking regarding the issue. Not that it doesn’t make sense, it’s just a bizarre way to think.

        https://forums.t-nation.com/t/the-endurance-athlete/179876
        Here’s a thread of a guy proposing a completely logical and reasonable way to use steroids, and him getting shouted down by idiots.

      • Fatman skriver:

        ”so you do NOT approve of the nancy reagan way to combat the drug epidemic?”

        I tend to find the ”let them die or put them in prison” approach generally unhelpful, when it comes to drugs and everything else.

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        I can do nothing but agree.

      • celicaxx skriver:

        The other thing too I’d like to add. There’s talk about SARMs now, and their possible medical uses. One thing I think about SARMs is not that there’s an actual need for the drugs, or even that they’re different drugs. I think SARMs are just basically oral steroids remarketed due to the bad publicity of steroids. People talk about the safety profile, but said oral steroids have comparable safety profiles when taken in their medical amounts.

  2. Fatman skriver:

    ”The big problem I see in my research is basically nobody using them for performance enhancement is using them in medical amounts anymore.”

    I suspect that some of the athletes who regularly pass drug tests might use small quantities in precisely calculated cycles. What is really weird to me is that the vast majority of PED abusers (if teh Interwebz are to be believed) are recreational lifters. So you have guys (and probably gals) out there who inject multiple grams of test per week for literally no reason.

    ”And to some extent this is due to the problems of black market supply of the drugs, and the dose becoming higher as the drug loses purity due to black market supply”

    You see the same problem with all drugs, really. You start using, and then you need money to buy more, ‘cause it ain’t cheap. So you cut your existing supply (which is already impure, coming from a dealer) and sell it on to someone else. This happens two or three times down the line and the end user gets toxic garbage.

    ”whereas otherwise without said drugs you’d just overtrain and go nowhere after a certain point depending on your physiology.”

    The same happens with low doses of PEDs, though. Then you up the dosage and see your gainz (and strength) climb, only to plateau again. Little by little you end up pinning 3 grams of test per week and die of liver failure.

    I have nothing against PEDs or the people who take them. But it definitely isn’t for everybody. Over the years, I have trained alongside dozens of juicers, and it seems to me that the mental aspect of it is more important than the physical. Guys would literally blow up over a summer and go from mediocre to moving heroic weights. In my teens and early 20s, I lifted in a gym where 450+ bench presses were common. When they stopped juicing (for whatever reason), they would melt away and shed plates from the bar overnight. Going from e.g. 405 to 275 for reps on the bench is a massive blow to the ego, especially when your (giant) lifting buddies are hueing behind your back.

    • lyftapajobbet skriver:

      for what it’s worth, I agree with both of you to some extent (but agree most with fatman ofc due to seniority).

      ”What is really weird to me is that the vast majority of PED abusers (if teh Interwebz are to be believed) are recreational lifters. So you have guys (and probably gals) out there who inject multiple grams of test per week for literally no reason.”

      this. there is a report from the swedish national sports council (translation might be a bit off, but here is the link http://www.rf.se/contentassets/dfbd4321295944d0b9780a253954a8c8/1711-antidopingstatistik1.pdf) which shows that from year 2002 up until 2016, 51% percent (i.e. 182 individuals) of those PUNISHED for using PEDs were only recreational lifters/runners/etc. however, there are other reports that try to calculate the (approximate) number of users in sweden and the numbers vary quite a bit (10 000 – 100 000) (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18514731 and http://www.regeringen.se/49b6a2/contentassets/e8736c3d067c4c45abf7a338b728f445/missbruket-kunskapen-varden-hela-dokumentet-sou-20116, last one in swedish). the most recent estimation, by the buy who wrote the government-funded report back in 2015 is that at least 30 000 swedes are regular users while another 10 000 swedes uses PEDs intermittently. that’s a fuckload of people.

      ”I have nothing against PEDs or the people who take them. But it definitely isn’t for everybody.”

      as mentioned before, moralising over this benefits no-one. the medical uses for PEDs can be fantastic (for example, burn victims are sometimes treated with steroids). theoretically, one could use if being aware of risks and making a proper risk assessment (cost-benefit, if you will). however, this is hard. also, almost everyone is biased in way or another (a potential user might only see the benefits while I probably will focus much more on the risks).

      this is a interesting discussion and another perspective I encountered recently is this: if someone presents to the hospital with a PED-induced condition (or any substance-related condition, really, from tobacco, alcohol etc), is that person entitled to treatment since they brought this on themselves fully knowing the stuff they did probably was really harmful?

      • celicaxx skriver:

        Well, obesity and heart disease usually are self inflicted as well, and still treated. Nobody’s entitled to anything, it’s simply what society determines is useful to give a person, regarding medical treatment, or really anything for that matter. I’m still a believer in government funded universal health care out of the sheer practicality and that it more or less works in every other country that does it and there’s no reason not to do it. But of course we will brag about ”the best healthcare in the world!” when epipens cost $500 and the WHO ranks USA at like #32.

        In USA at the moment PED related deaths are such a minimal thing compared to our real drug problems like opiates. I dunno about Sweden but it’s pretty damn common to find heroin needles in public parks, parking lots, etc, here. Then of course half the population is obese, too. About 70-80% of the population admits to trying marijuana in USA, and probably a solid 15 smoke it regularly. I think the drug scale here is totally different than Sweden for all drugs.

        If you’ve ever read PL2Win, Izzy actually almost got popped for roids on a road trip, cops searched his car and found them, and didn’t arrest him and even let him keep his tren. Probably because a lot of other officers in USA juice and get it, but likely this juicing causes a lot of roid raging deaths to civilians, but hey. So the American attitude toward them on a federal level is harsh and they’re still controlled drugs, but because LEO uses them so much in USA and I would say even are the main users of them, on the local scale it’s hard to get arrested unless you’re a major dealer/have made someone mad.

      • celicaxx skriver:

        Also, I think this video about it is enlightening, on roids in Sweden. Tell me if this guy is accurate, Lyfta.

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        I cannot see the video for some reason. can you please send the link again? 🙂

      • celicaxx skriver:

        Oh, he got banned from youtube/pulled a bunch of videos down. I’ll try to link it if it ever comes back.

        the tl;dr of the video?
        Possible literal reason Sweden banned roids and got so hardline was because a politician’s wife cheated on him with a bodybuilder.
        Swedish culture opposes doing anything immoderately, training 3 times per week is moderately, 5 times per week is immoderate. Roids is super immoderate, you can only be average and boring in Sweden and can’t leave humanity behind. Complains a lot about this cultural moderation thing.
        Cops can piss test you if you have big traps and delts. Female cops lift your shirt up and mire you to determine your chance of getting tested for roids.
        It’s cold and the guy likes Thailand better.

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        tl;dr the guy should be quiet. 🙂

        the part about cheating spouses being reason for steroid ban sounds like made up bullshit. never heard of and can’t find support for it online so I deem it unlikely.

        about the moderate culture then. yea, I guess you’re right. what is interesting however is that this culture is more about not blowing ones own horn, one should be modest about ones accomplishments. excessive bragging is generally frowned upon.

        well, cops piss test you if they have probable cause. everything boils down to this. I cannt speak for the system as a whole, of course, but the handful of cops that I know often mentions that they need to ve on somewhat firm legal ground before demanding urine tests.

      • celicaxx skriver:

        He had no support for that statement about cheating, but Tony Huge used to be a lawyer and said that was a reasoning behind quite a lot of laws, which I mostly believe most laws happen out of some sort of emotional triggering event (as in, gun control laws only after a big mass shooting, etc.) His point was more a personal event happened with a politician in some manner and this was a catalyst.

        I would say that Sweden is tyrannical for roid testing BBers for looking huge (a lot of foreign BBers have been piss tested at book/picture signings/etc in Sweden.) But compared to USA I think Sweden is probably a bit less tyrannical and probably more pleasant to live than USA at this point. tl;dr, probable cause basically means nothing, in both USA and Sweden. But at least Sweden they’ll probably be more polite asking you to piss test, and won’t immediately beat you half to death for questioning why like USA.

        Oh well, I still have a pretty positive opinion of Sweden overall. I had a friend from Sweden living here in USA for a short time and he actually basically hated it here. Oddly, too, for the talk of how PC Europe is and how you’ll get arrested for hate speech, etc, I found he made a lot more jokes/etc that don’t fly in USA. Also he almost got arrested here for lighting a pile of leaves on fire in his yard, because at least at that time in Sweden you could just call the fire department and say you’re lighting a pile of leaves on fire. Here, he called, and the FD and police came anyway and wanted to charge him with reckless burning and he only barely got out of it by being a foreigner.

        As far as the refugee situation, I actually have no idea. But he told me even as far back as 2010 when he was here, there were big neighborhoods of only foreigners segregated off from the white Swedes, and you could be accused of being a Neo-Nazi for having a Swedish flag flying, etc.

        But overall he liked Sweden enough to return and not come back to USA.

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        ”entitled” was a bad decription. but you get the general idea, if someone willingly exposed themselves to something that is very likely to be harmful, should we just let them crawl back home and die?

        I do think everyone should get the best treatment available, since I’m a swedish communist (coach please be 2
        triggered).

      • Fatman skriver:

        ”that’s a fuckload of people.”

        That’s interesting. I had no idea that steroid use was so prevalent.

        ”and that it more or less works in every other country”

        You must have slept through your lessons on American Exceptionalism, a.k.a. ”what works everywhere else can’t possibly work here”.

        ”LEO uses them so much in USA”

        I remember reading about Ronnie Coleman working full time as a police officer in Texas, twenty or so years ago. Even then I found it hilarious.

      • celicaxx skriver:

        Remember the time a cop flipped a kid over in a chair in high school and then blamed creatine?

        http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/12663-did-a-bodybuilding-supplement-trigger-classroom-cops-rage

  3. lyftapajobbet skriver:

    I guess (no real insight here) deaths/illness directly related to PED use is a minor thing compared to health issues caused by e.g. obesity, but to not abuse PEDs seems to me like an extremely easy way to decrease illness. just as it seems easy to not smoke and thereby avoid lung cancer. but this is easy for me to say since I dont smoke or use PEDs.

    • celicaxx skriver:

      I think at this point the paradigm is totally reversed, in that there’s a large amount of men with endocrine (as in, blood sugar problems, etc) bone density issues, fatigue, infertility, and psychological issues due to androgen insufficiency. I think it’s a major public health crisis, much eclipsing the problem of PED use/abuse. And the problem of PED usage/abuse is used to deny treatment and shove this problem under the rug.

      Besides my issue, one of my two friends that got it tested came back with a 220ng/dl T level and he is a healthy weight (almost underweight, actually…) 25 year old male with no history of roid use. It’s completely fucked, a whole generation not gonna make it. If you’re gonna debate lifestyle factors, the other person I know who got tested is literally 280lbs, sleeps 4-5 hours a night and eats entirely fast food and came back with a free test level in the 200s. So lifestyle as a factor isn’t much, it’s something else.

  4. Fatman skriver:

    ”if someone willingly exposed themselves to something that is very likely to be harmful, should we just let them crawl back home and die?”

    That would be an unproductive approach, since it would eliminate over 50% of the population. Fat people, people who drink, people who smoke, etc. PED abuse is pretty minor in that context.

    Money for medical treatment also comes from these people’s pockets (either through taxes in Sweden or health insurance scams, er, schemes, in the US). So it’s not a question of entitlement, rather of people getting what they pay for.

    Also I’m not sure when and how ”entitlement” became a bad word. Certain US politicians use it as an insult with barely veiled racist undertones. To me it’s pretty simple: if I pay for health insurance / into retirement funds, then I’m entitled to medical treatment / pension.

    • lyftapajobbet skriver:

      it would indeed be a horrible approach on many levels.

      I have very little insight in how health insurances work in other countries, but taxing is a great way to do it. tried to understand a few different models on how to organize the health finances but gave up after a while (provably to play dark souls for the umptenth time).

      btw, have you read anything about the healthy migrant effect?

      • Fatman skriver:

        ”have you read anything about the healthy migrant effect?”

        First time I hear (read) about it. Sounds disturbing. I wonder if it applies to all ethnic groups, or only certain parts of the world?

      • lyftapajobbet skriver:

        have a couple of articles in swedish I can try to write about in english

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